From the Burrow

TaleSpire Dev Log 127

2019-09-17 08:24:47 +0000

Recently I’ve been spending most of my time working on undo/redo support and general data model work inside TaleSpire. Because of that, I thought I’d take a post to ramble a little about undo/redo and how a ‘simple’ feature can grow when you have a few constraints.

This is not the exact way we are doing things in TaleSpire, but it’s an exploration of an idea I went through whilst looking at the feature.

In this post, I’m only going to talk about placing/deleting tiles rather than creatures to keep things simpler.

Chapter 1 - Building basics

So lets first have a look at a little building:

Players can do a few things:

  • They can place a single tile
  • They can drag to place multiple tiles
  • They can delete a single tile
  • They can select and then delete multiple tiles
  • They can copy and paste slabs of tiles

We are going to refer to placing tiles as an add operation and deleting tiles as a delete operation

There is no moving of tiles in TaleSpire, anything that looks like a move is actually a delete operation followed by an add operation. So cut and paste work like this. However, for now, we will ignore copy/paste and just look at the fundamental operations.

What can we say we know about add operations:

  1. The building tools should ensure that the new tile/s do not intersect any existing geometry
  2. The building tools should ensure that no two tiles in a drag add operation intersect.

For now, we will just leave these points here but we will refer back to them later. One thing of note though is that the ‘does not intersect’ property is something we want to try and maintain. Due to undo/redo it’s pretty easy for people to violate this[0] but the rest of the system should try to maintain this as much as possible.

All right, so our building tools let the player add and delete tiles, but we have to maintain this state in memory. Our world (the board in TaleSpire) can be far too big to fit in memory all at once so we divide the world up into zones which we can load in and out on demand. Because of this, we will want zones to be as independent as possible and so each zone is going to maintain it’s own tile data.

An add or delete of a single tile seems like a simple place to start, it should only affect one zone right? Well, it depends on the size of the tile. Let’s say our zones are 16x16x16 units in size and that the minimum size of a tile is 1x0.25x1 (where the 0.25 is the vertical component), well then if a single tile is 40x1x40 then it could be overlapping nine different zones. Even a humble 2x2x2 tile can overlap eight zones if it is in the corner. For the sake of sanity let us say that a tile can be no bigger than half the size of the zone (8x8x8), this way it can at most overlap eight zones, just like the 2x2x2 tile. We will also leave this issue here for now as we will have enough to think about, however, keep in mind how many little things we are ignoring for the sake of the readability of the article, all of these will need to be resolved before your game ships :p

Back to adding tiles! When tiles are placed we need to store data about them, things like the kind of tile it is, the position, rotation, etc. We will just talk about a tile’s data as if it’s a single thing for simplicity[1].

First player0 drags out 3 tiles.

tile-data = [add(* * *)]

tile-data is some linear collection holding the tile data and add is an object holding three tiles represented by asterisks (*) in this case.

Ok so they add 2 more tiles

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]

Neat. Now let’s look at undo. Well, that’s pretty simple right now as we have been storing our tiles in the order they happened, let’s just drop that most recent add.

tile-data = [add(* * *)]

Hmm, but now we need to support redo, it’s a shame we just threw away the data on the undo. What if we didn’t, what if we had a little store of things that have been ‘undone’. That means after the undo the data would look like this

tile-data = [add(* * *)]
undone-data = [add(* *)]

and now redo is simple too. We pop the data off of the undone-data stack and push it back onto tile-data.

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]
undone-data = []

So far so groovy. But now let’s think about deleting tiles. Well, that doesn’t map to our data layout as neatly. Our tile data is organized in chunks that are ordered by when they happened in history, not by where they are in the world. Our zones do offer a limited amount of subdivision of the world so currently, this means we need to visit each zone the selection intersects and then scanning through all the tiles in those zones to see which are in the selection. [2]

So about those zones.. how many are going to be involved? Let’s look at this 2d version.

2d selection example

Notice how, as the size increases the number of zones we need to consider is going up by the width x height and it’s more painful in 3D as it’s increasing by width x height x depth, so roughly cubing with respect to edge length. This is going to be quite a lot of zones to check. But how many tiles can a zone hold? Well a zone is 16x16x16 but a tile can be as small as 1x0.25x1 then that is 16x64x16 tiles 16384tiles…ugh this is getting to be a lot of work.

But a ray of hope appears, notice the hatched areas in the diagram above. Those are zones that are completely enclosed by the selection. Naturally, this means a delete operation will delete all the tiles within so we have an opportunity for a big optimization. For any zone that is completely enclosed we just remove all tiles, and we only compare the selection with the tiles themselves for zones that are only partially intersected by the selection. In general, this means the outer ‘surface’ of zones. The number of zones on the surface of the selection grows roughly in the order of (x^3 - max(x-2, 0)^3) which is much more manageable.

The situation has improved then but we still need to apply the operation to all those zones, and quickly. Luckily you have been watching the recent developments in your game engine of choice and have learned that they have added a neat job system which can spread work over multiple cores and has a specialized compiler which can optimize the heck out of your code. “Yay” you say, but one limitation all your data need to be Blittable types or arrays of such so our previous ‘list of chunks of tiles’ approach isn’t going to work. Furthermore, it would be neat if the tile data was packed together in memory so you could write that jobs that traverse the whole set of tiles rather than jumping around memory to separate chunks. This becomes important as you watch your players and notice that, whilst they do drag out large chunks of tiles, they also place a lot of tiles one at a time.

Ok so let’s look at our old data layout

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]
undone-data = []

Now let’s make this a single array, and instead of undo removing one and adding to another we with have an index which we will call the active-head. It will point to the most recent active chunk of tiles

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]

Our active-head is represented by the v above tile-data in code it’ll just be an integer.

With that change undo looks like this

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]

and redo does this

tile-data = [add(* * *), add(* *)]

Cool, but now to remove those extra objects, let’s flatten the array and move the layout information to a separate array

tile-data = [* * * * *]
layout = [3 2]

So far so good. Now our layout tells us how many tiles are in each chunk and tile-data stores all the tiles packed together.

Undo now looks like this…

tile-data = [* * * * *]
layout = [3 2]

and redo is still the reverse. This means undo and redo are still as simple as changing an integer from the data-model side[3]

Delete is different though, delete is based on a region on the board so we need to check each tile to see if it intersects with that region and, if it does, then we remove it from the tile-data array. Undo naturally requires us to put that data back. Now from a data angle that is annoying as it could leave ‘holes’ in our array as in the following diagram (deleted tiles represented by x)

tile-data = [x * x x *]
layout = [3 2]

This is no good as now we have to handle this. We could have each tile have a flag that says if it’s alive or dead. We would then need to check that any time we scan over this array. This is ok but, unless we undo the delete, we still have memory being wasted as it’s occupied by data for tile that been deleted. So maybe we reuse the gaps? Sounds great, but we can’t fill in the gaps with tiles from newer operations as otherwise, we lose the property that tile-data is in ‘history order’ and thus lose the ability for undo/redo to be represented by the active-head.

So if we don’t want holes but can’t fill them then another option is to compact the array as we delete, so whenever tile data is deleted the tile data to the right is shifted left to fill in the gaps. This requires more copying during the delete but let’s assume we profiled it and it proved to be the best option[4]. This is what we will assume for the rest of the article.

Let’s now look at the above delete operation with compaction.

tile-data = [* *]
layout = [1 1]

Neat! but we should note we have complicated undo for ourselves. If we undo a delete We will have to ‘make room’ in tile-data for the old tiles to be copied back into. There is one blessing though, we only care that chunks are in history order, not the tiles within the chunks. That means we don’t need to make room in the same places as we had the tiles originally…

tile-data = [_ * _ _ *]
layout = [3 2]

Rather, we can make room at the end of each chunk…

tile-data = [* _ _ * _]
layout = [3 2]

And still keep all the undo/redo benefits we had previously with the active-head approach.

This also simplifies redo of a delete, can you spot how?

Originally we had to scan through the tiles to find the ones to delete. Redo requires us to delete those same tiles again but we know exactly where they are now, they are at the end of each chunk.

Chapter 2 - Multiple players and a quandary

Now things get ‘fun’. We can have up to 16 players on a board at a single time and all of them could be given the permissions to build. That means we need to keep that all in sync on all machines but all make sure everything feels instant.

Let’s get one thing out of the way quickly, order matters. By this I mean the obvious quality that an add followed by a delete can give a different result from a delete followed by an add, from this we know we need to apply changes in a fixed order. For us, that means when we build we will send a request to a ‘host’ which will decide what gets applied in what order and tells the other player’s games (called a client from now on). Note that we also need to see a change the moment it happens so the order will be:

  • Player tries to make a change
  • The local client applies the change immediately and sends a change request to the host
  • the local client listens for change acknowledgments from the host
  • if the acknowledgement is for the thing we just built then we are done
  • if the acknowledgement is for another client’s change then we undo our change, apply their change and then reapply our change

Now that is very briefly covered we will assume that things are applied in the same order on each client and ignore that aspect of the problem for the rest of the article.

To keep everything in sync we need to be able to send information about what is being done by each player. We already know that our selections could be very large so we don’t want to have to send information about every specific tile that was modified, so instead we will want to send just what happened e.g. ‘player 0 added 30 wall tiles in this area’. This is ok for us as we are already assuming a fixes order of operations so we can assume that every player has the board in the same state when they apply the change.

Multiple players building also gets interesting due to each player has their own undo/redo history. This is very important as shared histories get very annoying very quickly. However, this messes with our little data layout from before. In the following layout I have changed out the asterisks for a designation that tells us who added the tile, this is only for our benefit in this article, it needed to be encoded in the actual data like this.

tile-data = [p0 p0 p1 p1 p0 p0]
layout = [2 2 2]

So three chunks of tiles have been added. First player0 (p0) added 2 tiles, then player1 (p1) added 2 and then p1 added 2 more.

Now let’s say p1 hits undo, that means the middle two tiles need to be undone but we can’t do this just by shifting the active head.

Here we face two choices, either we drop the active-head approach or keep it and find a way around the above issue. Neither way is wrong and both require changes to how the data will be stored. For the sake of the article, I am just going to continue with the active head approach so we can see how this has to be modified to keep its nice properties in the face of multiple players.

Chapter 3 - Multiple Players with the active-head approach

OK, so let’s say we like the way we can just change a single integer to represent undo/redo using the active-head approach. What would be needed to keep this working with multiple players?

Well each player could have their own tile and layout data

p0-data = [p0 p0 p0 p0]
p0-layout = [2 2]
p1-data = [p0 p0]
p1-layout = [2]

This lets us regain the quality that undo for p1 only affects p1’s data.

From now on let us say that if a tile is in p0-data then player0 ‘owns’ that tile and if the tile is in p1-data then player1 ‘owns’ that tile. With that little bit of terminology, we can look at delete again.

Delete is based on a selection of tiles on the board, it does care about who ‘owns’ the tile behind the scenes; if the tile is in the selection, it will be deleted. That means that when we scan the data for tiles to delete we need to scan each player’s tile array.

Remember how undo of a delete needed to restore tiles to where they came from? Well, what do we do for tiles that we delete from other players? It turns out that adding them back to the other player’s chunks (and thus their history) results in behavior that is fairly confusing to play as the result of undo or redo depends to an extent on the current state of another player’s undo or redo. How robust a game feels depends a lot on to what degree a player’s expectations of game behavior match reality and so it’s sometimes better to have a simpler behavior even if a more correct but complicated option is available. I’m going to claim this is such a case without trying to prove it here :)

The result of this is that we don’t want to try to push undone deletes back into the data arrays of other players. So where do we put them? How about the end of our data section? This is a bad idea as is breaks the active-head approach again. So for us to continue using this approach we now need an additional store per player for undone deletes.

p0-data = [p0 p0 p0 p0]
p0-layout = [2 2]
p0-deletes = []

p1-data = [p0 p0]
p1-layout = [2]
= []

The addition of more per player data probably feels annoying (it did to me) but one upside is that this array can use the same active-head tricks that we have used for the player’s data array but with a slight difference, the tiles exist in-game only if they are to the right of the active-head. In this case:

  • a delete of tiles owned by other players pushes them onto the player’s deletes array and advances the active-head
  • an undo of the delete shifts the active-head to the left, the things to the right are now active in-game
  • a redo of the delete shifts the active-head right again


This might feel like it’s all getting a bit out of hand. That is a fair conclusion to make! This is why I said at the beginning this writeup is just an exercise in following an idea through to where it leads rather than making a call on the best approach. I hope you have some thoughts on this and also a feeling for where this kind of feature can get complicated.

I have left out a bunch of things like “how do we maintain the mapping between the tile data my game engine’s game objects when our data can only contain Blittable types?” and “How long can undo/redo histories be?”. They are fun in themselves as I do recommend considering them if you decide to try and come up with your own schemes.


[0] For example imagine player0 placing a block of tiles, then player0 deletes those tiles, then player1 places some tiles in that (now empty) spot. Finally player0 undoes their delete and suddenly player1’s tiles intersect with player0’s.

[1] This means we are ignoring both the fields within and also the various possible layouts for those fields.

[2] We could of course store the ‘bounds’ (a 3d region) of the tiles organized in a way that makes spatial queries easier, and then have those contain indexes back to the tiles they refer to. This will mean sorting/maintaining this structure as tiles are added/deleted, so it’s not a free lunch but you will want to look at this if you are building this yourself.

[3] you still need to handle the relationship between the data and actual GameObjects or entities (depending on the system you are using)

[4] remember that building only happens as fast as humans can click, whereas some things might be happening every frame (60 times a second). It can prove better to prioritize the more common case over the less frequent one even if it does result in a slight drop in performance for the less common case.

TaleSpire Dev Log 126

2019-09-03 10:31:48 +0000

Current dev work is focused on the new building systems.

My goal is to have the basics of the data model worked out locally by the end of the week. Most of this right now is focused on how best to handle undo/redo so that it’s fast but also simple to synchronize. I had previously designed had some schemes for this but some tools we’d like to use are currently still in preview and some would require significant engineering to work around (In this case driving rendering ourselves would require a lot of work on the lighting system) and we don’t have time for that.

@Ree has been getting back into prototyping the bit that players interact with, the tools and game feel of building. Progress is being made in both areas but nothing worth showing yet.

Thanks for dropping by! More updates soon.

TaleSpire Dev Log 125

2019-08-28 18:43:26 +0000

Whyyyyy, WHY did I say on discord that the next alpha update would be ‘soon’? It angered the demo-gods and we’ve been dealing with an asset-loading problem ever since.

That issue has now been fixed and I feel like we know when that update will be landing. However I am not evening hinting at when that could be given what wrath that might incur.

We have also been moving our assets out of Unity Collab. We have been using Collab for a while but there are aspects to it that make it painful for teams and there has been no sign that it will improve. For now we are using Git LFS which is what we have been using for the game itself for over a year. Git LFS, once set up, it’s been pretty good to us so far.

The money from the Kickstarter has landed and @Ree has been busy working on the business side of things. We are looking forward to both being able to say we are officially hired by Bouncyrock and also to give more little bits of info regarding what happens to money after you make your pledge.

I (Baggers) have just got back from a long weekend with family in the west of Norway. The last year and a half has been a lot of work so it’s really nice to be seeing folks again.

More news as it happens!

TaleSpire Dev Log 124

2019-08-15 23:40:30 +0000

It’s been a nice day today, both @Ree and I got some coding done. Here are a few highlights:

  • Dice feel regressed a while back and Ree got that fixed back up again.

  • He also updated the implementation of the radial menus which we hope has fixed the issues with some stats not showing. I tested this but we had never been able to get a reliable reproduction of the issue so we will see how this fix holds up in the wild.

  • I found a interesting default behavior in the networking library we used which was resulting in huge hangs when updating certain player information. Once found the fix was trivial.

  • We have enabled Unity’s incremental garbage collector to smooth over another GC spike we were seeing. It’s very much a band-aid but it’s a nice one for the alpha before we get to addressing the core issues behind the allocations.

More news and an update to the alpha in the near future.


TaleSpire Dev Log 123

2019-08-13 22:56:52 +0000

Day two of the dev planning and again things went well. The main job today was going back through the task lists and working out which ones would be dependent on which. This is important so we don’t get blocked by each other and that, for the cases where the is a dependency, there will be work the blocked person can be doing.

We wont be putting out these orders as they will change and we’d like to keep things flexible.

Following on from yesterdays work I also got the backend running fully without and internet connection so I’m hoping that with a little more work I can point Unity at my laptop and run the whole TaleSpire stack locally. This will be a big win for iteration time when developing the backend.

Lastly and most prettily @Dwarf has made an awesome looking Kobold which we will be seeing in game shots of in the near future.


That’s all for today,


TaleSpire Dev Log 122

2019-08-12 18:35:16 +0000

The end of last week saw me playing with a cool toy so I thought I’d write about it.

First though, I’ve carried on with my digging into various erlang bits and bobs.

With a bit of prodding I was able to get epmdless working with my erlang/docker setup. This is great as distributed erlang is one of the powerful features that many erlang libraries lean on and previously this was hampered by docker requiring explicit port mappings. If you are interested in epmdless in conjunction with docker you can check out this article here.

I also spent some quality time getting to know gproc, erlbus, websockets a little better and I’m much happier now with where I’d use them in my projects. I’ve not got much more concrete to say on these but having a good understanding of common tools is helping with the design of the next iteration of the backend (more news on this in future too).

Lastly as fun bit (for me). For a time I was really enjoying that I was able to use docker to test the TaleSpire backend locally. I had webservers, db servers etc on their own little network and I could get a reasonable idea of how things should run. However at one point we started using amazon’s S3 for storage and that put a spanner in the works as I couldn’t test that locally. I could make a alternative approach for local dev but that’s more code to maintain and that could fail in ways that confuse my testing. Luckily there is a project called minio which runs in a docker container and presents the same api as S3. I’ve already modified the image to include my preferred tweaks and have tested making presigned urls which work GREAT.

So now I get to go remove some ‘local dev’ hacks and I get a simpler, more realistic, fully local, dev environment. LOVE IT.

Alright, that’s all the fun nerdage for now, back to planning :)

p.s. One thing I got stuck on initially with epmdless was that I was using rebar3 shell in the entrypoint script for my container. This will not work with epmdless as the epmd module vm args would need to be passed to shell and that would then freak out as it wouldnt know where to find the epmdless module. So instead try having the entrypoint script make a debug release of your erlang app and then start that in foreground mode. Then your config/vm.args will be used and everything will work fine.

Also, remember to expose the remsh port for epmdless so you can use the remote shell. I used this for my erlang repl settings in emacs. Once you have the official examples running most of this should be fairly self explanatory.

(setq inferior-erlang-machine-options
      '("-env" "EPMDLESS_DIST_PORT" "18999"
        "-env" "EPMDLESS_REMSH_PORT" "18000"
        "-name" ""
        "-setcookie" "cookie"
        "-remsh" ""
        "-proto_dist" "epmdless_proto"
        "-epmd_module" "epmdless_client"
        "-pa" "/app/_build/default/lib/epmdless/ebin/"))

TaleSpire Dev Log 121

2019-07-29 15:31:15 +0000

The end of last week looked at lot like this:

undo/redo lisp test

This was because I want sketching out ideas for the undo/redo system and I wanted a nice simple model for doing this. This is 4x4 map where tiles are represented by letters.

These tests allowed me to find small mistakes in my assumptions and to fix those in a much simpler (and less distracting) environment than doing the work in Unity. It was made it trivial to test out how I want to resolve the conflict between needed to apply changes immediately and needing to apply changes in the same order on all clients to get the right result.

I was using lisp for this as it’s where I’m most comfortable and also because the ease of recompiling smaller chunks of code just makes for nice fast iteration times.

Since then I’ve been looking at fog of war but that has mainly been prep for the planning sessions that will take place when Ree is well. So nothing to show there is it mainly amounts to lots of pages of my notebook being covered in scribbles :)

For now, that’s the update.

Keep an eye out for more news coming soon!

TaleSpire Dev Log 120

2019-07-26 08:48:45 +0000

Heya folks, behind the scenes I’ve been working on the next version of the undo/redo system along with new data layouts to make batching (for rendering) faster.

Undo/redo is one of the areas we’ve had serious lag before when working with large slabs of tiles. When looking at the code it was understandable why, however, there are interesting complexities to the system when you have multiple people adding and deleting tiles concurrently.

For the last two days, I’ve been working on a new design for the system. When doing we also have to make sure that the data layout we choose for this doesn’t make it slow to perform frequent tasks like rendering.

This is one of the bits I love with this job, sitting down with a pen and paper and just wrestling with a design.

I think I have something now but I’m not going to put it here yet as it needs some further validation. What I’ll do next is code a small prototype so I can see the properties of the system more clearly.

More details on that in the coming days :)


TaleSpire Dev Log 119

2019-07-22 22:52:15 +0000

Hello folks,

Research continues and, for now, that isn’t giving me much to show so I took an hour out to explore a requested feature: NDI Support.

NDI is a standard that lets applications deliver video streams via a local area network. For us, we are interested in being able to take these video feeds and use them in TaleSpire. This originally came up as a request from the community as it is apparently a popular way for streamers to integrate video (such as their player’s skype chat) into their streams.

It sounded cool and luckily where is already a Unity package available for working with NDI. It worked like a charm so HUGE props to keijiro for that great work.

This was a very limited test but it is encouraging. We would need to do a bunch more work to be comfortable shipping this and we wouldnt want to mess with the roadmap we have promised the Kickstarter backers. All that said this was a fun test and one I’m excited to revisit if it makes sense later on.

That’s all for now



TaleSpire Dev Log 118

2019-07-16 00:07:04 +0000

Another short dev log while we are still in the Kickstarter campaign.

Recently I’ve carried on studying. It looks like the hybrid renderer doesn’t handle per-instance data yet (which is mad) so we won’t be able to use that yet. This means we will probably want to avoid Unity’s ECS for now and just work with something similar but custom until that stack matures. This is no real issue as although we will have to do a little bit of tooling work when we need insight we do have experience in that.

Ree has always been the lead dev when working with graphics and shaders in Unity as he has many years of experience beyond me. I (Baggers) come with a decent amount from the GL side though so I’ve spent some time getting more used to hlsl and tooling we’ve been using. It’s fun, a lot of things are set up for you of course so I’m not sure (without the scriptable rendering pipeline) how one really packs data or does very custom stuff, but there’s plenty of time to learn that and the team has bags of experience I can lean on. This is really just making sure we are cross skilled enough that we don’t bottleneck each other too much (although when it comes to content creation I’m hopeless :D)

That’s all for today,